Advisory Council on the Environment

Confirmed Minutes of the 57th Meeting of the Advisory Council on the Environment held on 16 November 1998 at 2:30 p.m.

Present:

Mr. Peter H. Y. WONG, JP (Chairman)
Mr. Barrie COOK
Mr. Clement CHEN
Mr. Paul C. H. FAN
Professor Peter HILLS
Professor LAM Kin-che
Mr. Edwin Lau
Dr. LEONG Che-hung
Mr. LIN Chaan-ming
Dr. NG Cho-nam
Ms Iris TAM
Miss Alex YAU
Mr. Plato YIP
Mr. Danny TSUI (Secretary)


Absent with Apologies:

Mr. CHAN Kwok-wai, JP
Miss Ann CHIANG
Professor Anthony HEDLEY
Dr. HO Kin-chung
Mr. Joseph LAU Man-wai
Mr. PAO Ping-wing, JP
Mr. Otto L. T. POON
Mr. Michael J. D. RUSHWORTH
Mr. Tan Teng Huat


In Attendance:
 

	Action
The Chairman welcomed Mr. Edwin Lau and Dr. Constance Chan to the meeting.
Agenda Item 1 : Confirmation of Minutes of the Special Meeting held on 22 October 1998
2.The minutes were confirmed, subject to the proposed amendments to para. 6, 13, 19, 24 and 25 from EPD. [Note : The revised paragraphs are attached for confirmation.]
Agenda Item 2 : Confirmation of Minutes of the 56th Meeting held on 27 October 1998
3.The minutes were confirmed, subject to the proposed amendments to para. 25-30, 32 and 33 from Civil Aviation Department and para. 58 from DS(E), PELB. [Note : The revised paragraphs are attached for confirmation.]
Agenda Item 3 : Matters Arising
Matters Arising from the Special Meeting
Para. 4 : Comparison of Hong Kong's sewage charges with other countries
4.Members noted that PELB was preparing the information.	PELB
Para. 6 : Paper on ways to reduce water consumption
5.Members noted that the Secretariat had requested Water Supplies Department (WSD) to prepare the paper. [Post-meeting Note : WSD undertook to make the paper available for discussion at the January 1999 meeting.]	WSD
Para. 13 : Information on Shenzhen's waste water treatment/management facilities
6.Members noted that EPD was collecting the information which they had asked for. The Chairman said that it would be a good idea if a visit to Shenzhen could be arranged so that he and Members could obtain first-hand information on how the various wastewater treatment projects in Shenzhen were progressing. Noting that WWF had developed very close working relationship with the Shenzhen authorities in the past few years, the Chairman asked a Member whether WWF could arrange a visit for ACE to Shenzhen in the near future. (Note: WWF arranged a visit to Shekou and Futian for ACE members in December 1997.) That Member said that WWF would be pleased to make the arrangements. She said that she would work out the details with her colleagues and let the Secretariat know once available.	That Member
Para. 16 : Information on six further issues related to SSDS requested by Chairman
7.Members noted that actions were being taken by EPD to collect and compile the information. As some of the information which the Chairman had asked for was not readily available, it would take some time for EPD to obtain the information.
Para. 18 : Quarterly report on progress of SSDS Stage I
8.The first report would be available in January 1999.
Matters Arising from the 56th meeting
Para. 5 : Stepped up monitoring of Chinese White Dolphins
9.Members noted Transport Department's (TD) response, which stipulated that they did not have the expertise to carry out the assessment to gauge the environmental impact of the Tuen Mun - Chek Lap Kok ferry service to dolphins and that, under the existing contract conditions, the ferry operator was not obliged to carry out such an assessment. Members noted that the Secretariat would explore with TD the possibility of making it a licensing condition for franchisees to carry out environmental monitoring in the long run.
Para. 8 : Invitation to ESB to send a representative to sit on ACE
10.A reply from ESB was still outstanding.
Para. 22 : Visit to Automatic Refuse Collection System (ARCS)
11.Members noted that the Secretariat was liaising with the Housing Department to work out a convenient date for the visit. [Post-meeting Note : The visit is tentatively scheduled for 22 January 1999 from 10:00 am to 11:00 am. Members will be informed of the details in due course.]
Para 24 : Aircraft noise
12.A Member said that he would like to supplement what he had said at the last meeting. He said that he wanted to convey to AA and CAD that they should alert those residents who would be affected by aircraft noise once the second runway at Chek Lap Kok had come into operation as early as possible. This was because if these people were aware of the noise problem at an early stage, they would find it psychologically easier to live with the higher noise level when the problem really arose.
Para. 59 : Review on environmental education
13.The review paper would be available in January 1999.
Agenda Item 4 : Consultation Document of the Consultancy Study on Fisheries Resources and Fishing Operations in Hong Kong Waters (ACE Paper 50/98)
14.The Chairman welcomed PAS(ES)C, ESB, SCFO, AFD, FO(TD), AFD, TD, ERM and Sr. Consultant, ERM to the meeting. After a brief introduction by PAS(ES)C, ESB on the objectives of the consultancy study and the public consultation exercise, Sr. Consultant, ERM briefed Members on the findings and recommendations of the consultancy study.
15.A Member said that quota was an effective means to control the quantities of fish catches and was commonly used in other countries to prevent the over-exploitation of fish stocks. He asked the consultants why they did not accord a higher priority to this management option in their report. TD, ERM said that while quota was an effective means to protect fish stocks, it was extremely expensive to implement since a lot of resources would be required to develop a scientific and comprehensive quota system, given the sheer number of fish species which had to be covered under the quota system. Also, the effectiveness of the quota system would hinge upon the amount of enforcement efforts being put in. It was therefore not as cost-effective as other alternative management options, such as the introduction of fish license and the limitations on new entrants to the fishery.
16.A Member asked the consultants why they did not consider it important to control the mesh size of the net used in fishing operation. TD, ERM said that controlling the mesh size of the net was one of the management options which they had considered. It was however not accorded a high priority because it might prejudice against those fishing operations which were targeted at smaller size organisms (e.g. prawns) and would also be costly to enforce. SCFO, AFD supplemented that it would be practically and technically difficult to control the size of the net since there were so many different species of fish and the size of individual fish also varied even though they belonged to the same species.
17.A Member asked whether the Administration would evaluate the effectiveness of the recommended measures after they had been put in place for a certain number of years, and if so, what performance target would be. Sr. Consultant, ERM said that they had not set any performance target at the moment, but had recommended a monitoring programme for evaluating the status of our fisheries resources at regular intervals. He said that as more data about our fish stock would become available as a result of the monitoring programme, the Administration could then decide when fisheries activities could be adjusted.
18.Since the Mainland and Hong Kong shared common fishing grounds, a Member asked what measures the Mainland had taken or would take to control their fishing activities, particularly in the South China Sea. SCFO, AFD said that since Hong Kong was more or less facing the same problems as Mainland in the protection of fisheries resources, our control measures should be similar to theirs. The Guangdong authorities had in place fisheries management measures to prohibit trawling and other types of fishing at specific locations, such as spawning and nursery grounds for fish and prawns.
19.A Member remarked that Mainland was seemingly ahead of Hong Kong in protecting fisheries resources since they already had their management measures in place whereas Hong Kong was still at the embryonic stage of formulating its management strategy. The Chairman opined that it was crucial that both sides would co-operate to protect fisheries resources. PAS(ES)C, ESB responded that it was Hong Kong government's policy to protect fisheries resources for the long-term sustainable development of the local fishery industry. In this regard, government had already implemented a number of measures to protect fisheries resources in the waters of Hong Kong, including the enforcement of legislation to deter destructive fishing practices. Recognising that there was more room for Hong Kong to contribute to this worthwhile goal, AFD had therefore commissioned this consultancy study to identify further means to prevent the depletion of our fisheries resources. AD(Cons), AFD supplemented that discussion between AFD and the Guangdong Provincial Oceanic and Aquatic Products Department on enhanced co-operation had already started some time ago and a working group would shortly be formed under the Hong Kong - Guangdong Environmental Protection Liaison Group to step up co-operation between the two sides in fisheries resources conservation, aquaculture and red tides.
20.A Member asked whether, apart from over-fishing, pollution was also threatening the growth of the fisheries population. TD, ERM said that this was an area which the study aimed to look at. However, the lack of comprehensive data to substantiate a causal relationship between pollution and fisheries stock had made it difficult for the study to address the issue as comprehensively as AFD would have wished. The study findings had however indicated that the fishing pressure was so strong in Hong Kong that, even in the absence of the water pollution problem, our fish stocks would unlikely increase unless and until proper management options were in place to control our fishing activities.
21.A Member was concerned that the commissioning of the sewage outfall under SSDS would further threaten the population of the fish stock since sewage outfalls were known to be popular gathering grounds for crustaceans and fish and the bacteria content in sewage, even after treatment, might have adverse impact on the fish and marine mammals. SCFO, AFD said that it was outside the remit of this consultancy study to address pollution problems. However, AFD was currently conducting another study to examine the impact of changes in water quality due to development on local marine organisms. The study would be completed in two years' time and would provide more useful data regarding the relationship, if any, between such changes in water quality and the health of local marine organisms. DS(E), PELB explained that the commissioning of the various stages of SSDS would help improve the water quality in Hong Kong rather than worsen it. This was because sewage which was now discharged into the Victoria Harbour would be treated with CEPT and disinfection before being discharged away from the Harbour.
22.A Member asked the Administration to clarify what would its overriding concern be in formulating its future fisheries policy and how would it strike the balance among the needs to protect the fisheries resources, ensure the steady supply of fish to the local market, protect the livelihood of the local fishing community and maintain the local fishing industry. PAS(ES)C, ESB said that the government policy mentioned earlier aimed to strike a balance between the need to protect fisheries resources on the one hand and the need to facilitate sustainable development of the fishing industry on the other hand.
23.The Chairman commented that recreational fishing activities should also be put under proper control as unregulated fishing activities by amateurs could be as detrimental to the fisheries resources and marine environment as commercial fisheries. SCFO, AFD responded that the success of artificial reef programme may help facilitate the development and better management of recreational fishing activities by integrating the two together. The Chairman advised that substantial educational efforts should also be made to educate the public at large, particularly amateur fish-catchers, of the detrimental effect of over-fishing to the marine ecology and environment.
24.In response to a Member's queries, PAS(ES)C, ESB explained that since March 1998, government had been studying the findings and recommendations as contained in the report. The Administration was however open-minded and wished to hear the views of ACE, the fishing industry and other interested parties before deciding the way forward. Under such circumstances, it was premature to project at that stage the total amount of resources required to implement the fisheries management strategy, which had yet to be formulated.
25.A Member said that WWF generally supported the need to develop a management strategy to reduce fishing efforts and rehabilitate the local fish stocks. In this regard, WWF strongly believed that the setting up of a quota system, the imposition of entry barrier and the control of mesh size were crucial elements of control. WWF also acknowledged the potential ecological value of artificial reefs but considered that a proper management strategy had to be in place in order to make the artificial reef programme work.
26.PAS(ES)C, ESB thanked Members for their comments and said that she would take them into account in formulating the management strategy. The Chairman said that the most important thing was for the Administration to develop the strategy and have it implemented as soon as possible. He therefore requested ESB to expedite the process so that the strategy would be ready for ACE's consideration by October next year. PAS(ES)C, ESB noted the Chairman's request.
Agenda Item 5 : Energy Policy from an Environmental Perspective (ACE Paper 48/98)
27.The Chairman welcomed PAS(ES)B, ESB to the meeting. PAS(ES)B, ESB briefed Members on the energy policy in Hong Kong.
28.In response to the Chairman's query, DS(E), PELB confirmed that PELB had policy responsibility over the control of green house gas emission and had, through EPD, commissioned a study to look at how Hong Kong could economically control green house emission. An inventory of green house gas emission would be compiled and measures would be introduced to control the emission level. The study report would be ready in 1999.
29.A Member asked what position the Administration would take regarding the choice of fuel for new power generating plants. PAS(ES)B, ESB responded that government's position was clearly spelt out in the 1998 policy objectives booklet, in which ESB had committed to promote the use of natural gas as a fuel for power generating and other uses, where feasible and economically viable. It also acknowledged natural gas as an environmentally cleaner fuel than coal or oil. DEP supplemented that there was provision in the Air Pollution Control Ordinance which required EPD, as the authority for issuing licences to premises for carrying out specified processes which would produce emissions, to have due regard to the best practicable means for minimising emissions when considering licensing applications. In this regard, EPD would only issue licence to premises which could demonstrate that they had resorted to the cleanest fuel available, which would normally mean natural gas unless there was no gas supply to the premises concerned.
30.A Member told Members that when he joined the General Chamber of Commerce's mission to Guangzhou some three weeks ago, he was told that the State Council had just approved the construction of a new LNG terminal in Shenzhen. He was also told that although the whole Guangdong Province had an electricity generating capacity of about 20,000 megawatt, only 1/3 of it was generated from clean sources whereas the remaining 2/3 was still generated from coal or diesel. He understood that the Mainland side would be placing greater emphasis on the use of cleaner fuel to generate electricity, in the process of building up the Mainland's energy capacity. PAS(ES)B, ESB said that he understood that it was Guangdong Province's policy not to approve any further coal-fired generators. He said that, in the long-term, the Mainland could be an important source of energy supply to Hong Kong, particularly from hydroelectric facilities. It would however not be appropriate for Hong Kong to go that way at this stage, given the fact that 2/3 of the power in the Mainland was still generated from coal and diesel-fired generators.
31.A Member commented that it would be inappropriate to regard waste-to-energy incineration as a kind of renewable energy, since a lot of carbon dioxide and toxic pollutants would be released during the incineration process, thereby causing pollution to the environment. He also asked whether the government would assess the environmental externalities associated with energy production and whether it would use the end-use database to find out the amount likely to be saved from energy conservation efforts vis-a-vis the amount saved as a result of a reduction in the amount of electricity to be generated. He also commented that the Demand Side Management (DSM) program and the profit control scheme for the utilities companies were contradictory to each other.
32.PAS(ES)B, ESB responded that there was no contradiction between the DSM program and the profit control scheme. Both were essential for ESB to ensure that Hong Kong would have a reliable power supply but at the same time do all it could to save energy.
33.PAS(ES)B, ESB continued that the Administration would make use of the end-use database to work out whether it would be more economical to save energy from the consumer or suppliers' end.
34.A Member was concerned about the impact of the Year 2000 (Y2K) problem to the utilities companies. PAS(ES)B, ESB said that the Secretary for Information Technology and Broadcasting (SITB) was co-ordinating efforts among government departments to identify, resolve and monitor the Y2K problem. The two power companies were required to submit monthly reports to SITB on the progress of the rectification work.
35.A Member asked how vigorous the government was in promoting the efficient use of and conservation of energy. PAS(ES)B, ESB said that ESB had made great efforts in seeking the co-operation of the two utilities companies to participate in the Demand Side Management Program. The two utilities companies had already drawn up their DSM Plan which would be published around end of December 1998. DS(E), PELB said that PELB had been promoting energy conservation, particularly the efficient use of energy inside buildings, through the dissemination of information to the public on retrofitting existing buildings with energy efficient equipment and the release of the Hong Kong historical energy end-use data. He emphasised that government's effort alone would not be adequate in achieving energy efficiency and each and every individual in the community should also contribute to that worthwhile cause.
36.A Member considered it more appropriate and logical for energy users rather than energy suppliers to draw up and implement DSM plans since the latter would likely have a conflict of interest in promoting energy conservation. PAS(ES)B, ESB said that various large private corporations had already had their own DSM program in place.
37.A Member commented that proper use of economic instrument, such as the levy of green house gas emission tax upon electricity consumers, would be effective in encouraging the community at large to save energy.
38.The Chairman thanked PAS(ES)B, ESB for the presentation. He said that the Council looked forward to the introduction of the DSM by the two utilities companies shortly and would most likely comment on them.
Agenda Item 7 : Environmental Performance of Daya Bay (ACE Paper 47/98)
52.The Chairman welcomed NE, HKNIC and GPAM, CLP to the meeting.
53.In response to the Chairman's query, NE, HKNIC informed Members that PRC's existing policy regarding the storage or processing of "spent" nuclear fuel was to process those reusable radioactive materials, such as uranium and plutonium, for further use and to dispose of the remaining high-level nuclear waste, which accounted for about 3% of the "spent" fuel, at facilities away from the nuclear plant. There, the spent fuel would be stored for a period of ten years before they were taken away for reprocessing. He further told Members that the Guangdong Nuclear Joint Venture Company, which was owned by Guangdong Nuclear Investment Co. and HK Nuclear Investment Co. (HKNIC), would use a repository to be operated by another company for storing intermediate and low level radioactive waste. The new repository would be located 4km to the north-east of the Daya Bay Nuclear Plant and was scheduled to be commissioned in 1999.
54.A Member said that he understood that Daya Bay Phase 1 was using a French-built system whereas Daya Bay Phase 2 was using a GEC system. Given the difference in the operating system between different phases of the Daya Bay Nuclear Plant, that Member was concerned about the safety of the Plant as a result of integration problems. NE, HKNIC clarified that Daya Bay 1 and 2 were two organisations but were indeed using the same nuclear system which was very similar to one another. It was the non-nuclear generating system that was different.
55.Noting that Daya Bay Nuclear Power Plant had been monitoring its impact on food chain and ocean ecology, a Member asked whether it was possible for her to obtain the monitoring results, as she could not find them in HKNIC's monthly bulletin. NE, HKNIC explained that since the study programmes were completed annually and the timetable for releasing the information normally did not dovetail with the publication of the monthly bulletin, they had therefore not been included in the bulletins. He undertook to provide the information required to that Member after the meeting. [Post-meeting Note : HKNIC sent a letter to the ACE Chairman on 20.11.98 enclosing relevant information for that Member's enquiry.]	HKNIC
Agenda Item 8 : Air Pollution Control (Petrol Filling Station) (Vapour Recovery) Regulation (ACE Paper 51/98)
56.The Chairman welcomed Ag. PAS(E)1, PELB and Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD to the meeting. Ag. PAS(E)1, PELB and Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD gave a brief presentation to Members regarding the objectives of and various major provisions in the Regulation.
57.The Chairman said that the heavy penalties proposed under the Regulation seemed to reflect the potential hazard of benzene emitted during the petrol unloading process to human beings. He asked whether the Administration would take any interim measures between now and the full implementation of the Regulation to ensure that the operation of those petrol filling stations which had not yet installed the vapour recovery system would not cause unacceptable harm to the public. Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD said that all the oil companies had been very co-operative in complying with the new requirements and over 60% of the petrol filling stations, in particular those hot spots, had already installed vapour recovery systems. DEP told Members that, because of its physical characteristics, benzene which was emitted during the petrol unloading process would not be concentrated near the ground level. Therefore, their impact to passers-by would be minimal. Nevertheless, EPD would monitor the situation closely and seek the co-operation of petrol filling stations operators to expedite the installation of vapour recovery system, should the situation become intolerable.
58.The Chairman said he was told by a Member that the US had passed a legislation which required all new petrol vehicles to install a device to suck away the fume during the petrol-filling process. He asked whether Hong Kong would follow suit. Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD said that the control of emissions during refilling of vehicles were using either on-board carbon canisters installed in the motor vehicles or by fitting recycling devices to the petrol dispensing nozzles at the petrol filling stations. He said that the Administration would assess the effectiveness of the Regulation once fully implemented as well as closely monitoring the technology best suit HK's situation.
59.A Member remarked that the sucking device used by vehicles in the US and Australia seemed to be very effective in recovering benzene, as there was apparently no unpleasant odour at petrol filling stations in these countries. DEP said that the odour problem at local petrol filling stations was more acute than elsewhere because most of the petrol filling stations in Hong Kong were surrounded by high-rise buildings, which would make it difficult for the odours to disperse.
60.In response to a Member's query, Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD said that once the Regulation had been implemented, EPD's enforcement staff would inspect petrol filling stations to ensure that the pumping pipes were properly connected before petrol was being unloaded. He said that Hong Kong was indeed five years ahead of other European countries in complying with the EU requirement for controlling benzene emissions from petrol filling stations.
61.A Member asked and Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD said that the proposed vapour recovery system to be installed at petrol filling stations would make use of the vapour-balancing technique.
62.A Member commented that the government should review the locations of our petrol filling stations and relocate those which were situated in densely-populated areas. The Chairman remarked that this would not be easy since there would be strong opposition from commercial drivers and private car owners. Ag. AD of H said that she understood that EPD was developing an air quality standard related to benzene and reference was made to the standards in the U.K. Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD supplemented that the data collected from EPD's air monitoring stations in Central & Western and Tsuen Wan had shown that the annual average benzene level in Hong Kong was around 3mg/m3. This figure was well below the U.K. annual standard for benzene of 16mg/m3 which implied benzene level was not the major concern.
63.A Member asked and Ag, PEPO(AP), EPD told Members that only petrol delivery vehicles would be controlled under the new Regulation. Private cars would however not be affected.
64.The Chairman concluded that the Council supported the Regulation. Ag. PAS(E)1, PELB thanked Members for their support and said that the Regulation would be tabled to LegCo for negative vetting by the end of 1998. It would come into effect on 1 April 1999.
Agenda Item 9 : Any Other Business
Tentative Schedule of Work for ACE in 1998
65.Members noted the schedule which was tabled.
Meeting Schedule for 1999
66.The Chairman said that he was working out the 1999 meeting schedule with the Secretariat. The Secretariat would let Members have the schedule once available.
Waste Reduction Framework Plan (ACE Paper 52/98)
67.The Chairman welcomed PAS(E)2, PELB, AD(WF), EPD and PEPO(FP), EPD to the meeting.
68.PAS(E)2, PELB told Members that the Administration would brief Members on the details of the Waste Reduction Plan at the next meeting but would like to listen to Members' views on the composition of the proposed Waste Reduction Committee (WRC) first.
69.The Chairman proposed that there should be cross membership between ACE and WRC so as to provide the linkage between the two bodies. He also proposed that somebody from the Housing Authority and the recycling industry be invited as members. A Member proposed that a representative from the building industry be invited and another Member proposed that representatives from the green groups and Education Department be invited. PAS(E)2, PELB said that he would take Members' views into account when considering the composition of the proposed WRC, which would be made up of a good and balanced mix of expertise from all relevant field.
70.In response to a Member's query, AD(WF), EPD said that WRC would not just be an advisory body but would also take an active role in promoting waste reduction.
71.In response to the Chairman's query, PAS(E)2, PELB said that since WRC and the Environmental Campaign Committee had very different ambit and objectives, there should not be any duplication of education and publicity efforts between the two. DEP said that both bodies were served by EPD and that they would complement each other's efforts.
72.A Member said that it would be desirable if the term of appointment of WRC could be synchronised with that of ACE. PAS(E)2, PELB noted the proposal.
73.In response to the Chairman's query, PAS(E)2, PELB said that the Administration intended to seek CE's endorsement on the establishment of the WRC in the next few weeks, with a view to putting it into operation later this year or early next year.
EIA Subcommittee Visit
74.As there would be no EIA Subcommittee meeting in December, the EIA Subcommittee Chairman proposed that a visit to Kam Tin and Ngau Tau be organised for EIA Subcommittee members to see whether the approved projects had caused any major impact to the environment.
Informal meeting with the EA Panel
75.The Chairman reminded Members that the meeting was scheduled for 11 December 1998 at 9:30 am.
Discussion on alternative approaches to reclamation
76.A Member said that the reclamation works at Southeast Kowloon and around the coastline of the Victoria Harbour was causing grave concern to members of professional bodies. Many professional bodies had proposed various alternative approaches to carry out the works. He proposed that these alternative approaches be discussed at the EIA Subcommittee. The Chairman said and another Member concurred that it would not be appropriate for the EIA Subcommittee to discuss this at its meeting. To follow up that Member's request, that other Member said that he would ask the EIA Subcommittee Secretariat to organise a forum on this for general exchange of views.	EIA Sub-committee Secretariat
Agenda Item 10 : Date of Next Meeting
77.The next meeting was scheduled for 14 December 1998.

Planning, Environment and Lands Bureau (Environment Division)
December 1998